Discussion: Support Crew vs No Support Crew - Which is faster?

Curious to hear what opinions are out there. For a 24-36 hour adventure race, does having a support crew make your team faster or slower through transitions and overall in the race?

If it's a true support crew as opposed to some suckers you tricked, then definitely faster.

The '06 Mighty Mo had us plotting all the points on race time. Nike plotted the points for the first paddle leg of the race and took off letting their support crew do all of the subsequent plotting and route finding. We didn't have an experienced support crew and therefore had to do it all ourselves. I'm betting Nike was off the water before we got on it.
I'm sure that's not why they beat us but I think you'll get the point.

Agreed with 09Man, if they know what they're doing having an s-crew should be much faster.

Your team is also important. If you have members (racers or crew) who are 'easily distracted' an s-crew could slow you down, so discuss in advance.

It's another asset/tool to be utilized. If used well (have a plan) it will be a huge asset/time saver.

Definitely faster with a good support crew and a team that knows how to work with them. I'm curious about why you ask the question. If you asked, "Is it better for a race to be supported or unsupported?", I would say "unsupported" in a heartbeat. As per the Nike story, the support crew can influence the race to a great extent. It also creates one more barrier in a sport where it's hard enough to put together a team, let alone find friends and family members willing to sit in remote buggy woods for a weekend!

I was pretty sure of what the answers would be, but was curious to see if anyone (most likely less experienced adventure racers than those commenting!) would have the opposing opinion that FB mentioned. The first question also sets up the next question: How much faster through TAs is a team with decent support crew vs an unsupported team (percentage-wise or minute-wise, rough estimates welcome) - Let's assume no race-time plotting and a 24-36 hour race.

The comfort a support crew provides can be a slowing factor for a lot of teams, too. For some racers, it's better not to even have the option of a chair or warm van.

I tried to come up with a simple time estimate but it's hard to separate quality from quantity. An unsupported team will take longer because they have to fill their own water bladders, find and pack gear for the next section, find some food, etc. On the other hand, they may not take time to do all the same things in the TA, e.g. having hot soup or re-bandaging a blister, and that could slow them down later on relative to teams whose support crew took better care of them.

I think your "find a formula to adjust supported vs unsupported" is impossible; just too many variables in that equation.

Races that require a support crew are harder to find these days; even Raid in France, which has always required support over the years, is going unsupported for 2011. The 2012 World Championships will be in France and ... you guessed it ... no support crews.

The only people I know who like to see races with support crews are those who aren't active racers any longer. The glory days of racing 2 weeks in Borneo with support crews and Eco-Challenge tv crews are long gone; it's a nostalgic idea, but not a practical one when teams have lean sponsor budgets -- if any sponsor $ at all.

As an organizer, avoiding support crews lets us operate in harder to reach areas and with a much smaller footprint. There wasn't a single TA at Untamed New England these last couple years that could've fit 50 SUVs or RVs with team assistants setting up tents and all. And team assistants are always asking staff questions, their car breaks down and they turn to the race org for help, etc.

Having said all this, the Ecuador race requires support crew and vehicle, but they provide this for all the international teams so it's more like "unsupported" in my mind. If we happen to score a local driver who can fix a bike, that will be a major wind-fall!

If you're leaning towards an unsupported angry seagull in 2011, you have my vote. i've given up 3 weekends the last 3 years. too much coffee too.

i think tho, unsupported would mean the more entry-level teams may have problems. they are the ones who need the hot soup. some dry clothes. a welcoming word at 3 in the morning. they really aren't in it except to finish.

Maybe it's time for you to jump to the racing side for this year, Frank!

Personally I think most entry level teams would prefer unsupported. I know if a race was only supported, my team couldn't even consider it.

Teams that have been around a while likely have a pool of like-minded friends in the AR community willing to chip in and support them. As Bash mentioned, newer teams would most likely be relying on support from friends and family who may be less enthused about being in the middle of nowhere at 3am.

We've been racing for a long time but I still hate to ask such a big favour. If an event requires a support crew, I usually cross it off the list.

The last race I did it was a disadvantage to have a support crew for many teams because it was impossible for the support crew to drive between TAs without speeding. When our team arrived into one of the TAs expecting warm food and other goodies we were disappointed our crew hadn't had time to do any of that. That was demoralizing since we had been racing head-to-head with two other teams at a very high pace. But then we weren't nearly as upset as one of the teams we had been racing head-to-head with because their crew was nowhere to be seen and didn't arrive for another full half hour.

The best organized 24 hour race I did (before the knees went kaput) was Balance Bar 24 hour in California (unsupported race with 100 teams of 3) . The TA was a high class place that wasn't just a field at the side of a road with a bunch of bikes dumped in it. They had a generator with flood lights to keep the area lit all night long. They had music playing and porto potties. A viewing area for family and friends and also a large bike rack like in a triathlon TA for teams to place their bikes. While perhaps a distraction for top teams it was a nicer, gentler friendlier atmosphere for newbies and recreation teams. At the time it didn't seem like 'real AR' to me but then again the first 'real AR' race I did my team had to wait 90 minutes for our bikes at a TA because the organizers had not got them there yet.

I haven't done an AR in 5 years but looking seriously at the Angry Seagull despite my bad knees. The terrain in the Parry Sound area is excellent for AR.

It's hard to call having a support crew a disadvantage because of a poorly designed course. Though it may have ended up a disadvantage, it's not the fault of the support crew concept.

I've never experienced a problem sourcing a support crew and I have a theory why. My support crews have always been as much a part of the team as the racers. In essence the support crew is integral to a supported race, but too often you see someone's poor spouse, or a family member who was probably duped into this mess and basically all they do is drive, wait, clean up and maybe prepare some food or find some gear.

The support crews who return and excel are the ones tasked to record splits, eavesdrop on RD communication and other team plans, help with map prep, work on bike mechanicals, enforce a TA timeline... all the fun stuff! And I don't believe that the crews who do that are A-Types who would have done it and enjoyed it anyway. I think it's just that their first impression of the beast was good and exciting so they kept with it.

When I've worked support crew, that's the way I've done it. It's definitely fun in a different way from racing but it's still a huge favour. Even when all your costs are paid (not always the case), it's still time away from home and a lot of waiting around. In a big race like Primal Quest with a team in the top 10, it was exciting. But would I support a team like mine in a regional event? Probably not, if I could find an excuse to avoid it! :) And I know most of my friends aren't any keener on the idea.

I just crossed Raid in France off the list last night after reading that support crew was required. It was sounding good until then.

I look forward to supporting when my kids start racing at that level... I might even be good at it and I'll probably be paying for them as well :-)

Actually, I'd support your kids too. :)

Bash: I read Raid in France isn't requiring a support crew this year, let me see if I can find the link ...

Maybe they haven't updated their website?
http://www.raidinfrance.com/gb/condition_inscripti...

I like the requirement that the team's name must be "non-abusive". I guess "Tree Huggers" is as good as it gets!:)

Nothing better than pitching a race to a sponsor or tv production company, and to have the online team roster include names like "Mother Scratchers" or "Drunk Bastards" -- it can really seal the deal!

I just emailed Raid in France to confirm about support crews, as I could swear they said unsupported for 2011 and the WC in 2012.

Official word from Pascal at Raid in France: "No support crews for the 2011 Raid In France."

Support crewing for our kids? I only had kids so they could support me!

Actually Bo is already rocking out at orienteering and he dominated the U3 mountain biking (triking?) and running categories in the Maritimes. I think I've got a teammate in a few years... if I can keep up.

My son is turning 15 this summer (!!!?) but if I wanted to support him now I'd have to fight his grandmother for the opportunity (she's his biggest fan).

If I was smart enuf I'd post his pic from LR&S and be 'one of those dads'

My 'round about point' is that when looking for support AND volunteers for races look to parents, grandparents and local seniors... they often have the time, enthusiasm, patience and a lot of knowledge to offer. Older folks are remarkably dependable and often have an amazing ability to get stuff done. Some of the best race support (crew or staff) I've experienced is from the 'experienced' crowd!
... and they rarely drink your finish line beer before you get there :-)

Whenever my mom sees me during a race she thinks I'm going to die and my father starts demanding I stop because it's insane. They don't come around much anymore. They worry especially when I race with my brother.

FB may not be "one of those dads" but I am "one of those Facebook friends". (Of FB's son, that is. FB Senior steers clear of Facebook.)



P.S. Thanks for the info, Grant. I guess it shows that you shouldn't take the info on race websites at face value, even when things look fairly complete and up to date... Regardless, I'd still rather do APEX than Raid in France if I can pull a team together.

Love it! He's already mastered the "I've got a transition to complete, take the picture already!" expression.

I'll be support crewing for this guy soon:



I'm DEFINITELY one of those dads. Hellofa lot better than the inattentive kind.


Back on topic, NSAR is starting the newsletter again and I'm just about finished my entry for him. It's concerning the before / after ~2005 attitudes of team size and format. Though I haven't included it in the analysis, I think the same theory I'm discussing could be attached to support crews.

Awesome pictures! I figure in another few months I can get my little guy started too. (Next AP discussion: Is 9-months old too early to start orienteering/adventure race training?) Can't wait to read the article, 09Man. Was there a significance to picking 2005?

Great thread, lots of great comments.

When I race it is hard to find anyone to support crew, let alone experienced members. Usually we were able to 'trick' someone into supporting until they discovered what it was like. I must admit that I found supporting more work than racing, so thanks to all the great support crews out there.

When I organize I have found that the support crews often require more support than the racers do. Thus NSAR has gone to not allowing support crews for Race the Phantom and a clover leaf design for Who's Your Daddy? and The Lowery Memorial Shuttle Run.

AngreSeagull... there was a local significance to 2005, detailed in the blog to be released. Plus it's more or less around the lowest point for attendance at ARs.

Plus, I think Bo was about 7 or 8 months old when he started joining me in the back pack or in the stroller. That's about when he had the neck control to keep his head stable. But he was ~2.5 when he started doing orienteering with me on his own feet.

NSAR... Hard to find anyone to support crew? I've got pictures of you at supported races with not only a support crew of about six people, but an entourage of an additional dozen! I've never seen a team come up with so many people. And shame on you for calling them inexperienced... it was all during your first year or two racing!

His support crew recruiting problems have probably been more recent, after said entourage of supporters figured out what a jerk he is. HEY-OH!!

@ AngrySeagull - wow, you really are angry.....but you are also bang on. :)

@ 09Man - you are right about the entourage in 2006/07, but as soon as I started organizing I became the 'jerk' as Jay pointed out and they soon had my email and phone blocked. Oh well. :-D

Just a shout out to FB's mom and son as awesome support crew and racer --love that pic of Will!...and although I agree that the older crowd would be a good bet, you have to have access to them! I don't have the type of parents/family that would want to support so I would have to rely on friends..who frankly would rather do other things with their weekends/vacation etc... and I can't blame them...it's not my first choice either. I find the more active friends the harder it is for them to commit, they have their own adventures to do! Having said that, it's imperative to thank volunteers at any event...(they are a type of support crew too!) and I also think it's important to give back as much as possible by also volunteering at events whenever possible.

oh and how cute is your little guy Andrew L? that is so awesome....