In your respective regions, do you ever have trouble with teams splitting up on course?
A couple of years ago we had a few problems with one particular group, but they were new and I don't think they had full appreciation for the nature of the sport and the necessity for safety. Some stiff penalties and harsh words and it hasn't been a problem since.
But at another race we encountered a team tactically splitting up to search for controls / rest while teammates collected the control on in and outs. It was really maddening to watch! There was at least one veteran on the team too who should definitely know better.
Curious... does it happen anywhere else?
Sure, I've seen that done far too often by teams who know they are breaking the rule. It's frustrating to place behind people who do that, as has happened to us on numerous occasions. I'm a big fan of the races I've done in Europe where every teammate wears a SportIdent card on a snug, non-removable wristband and every teammate has to punch every control within the same timeframe. Fortunately, it's less of a problem in the races I enjoy most - the ones that send you point to point through terrain without roads. Teams who split up there might never get back together!
Strange isn't it? The types of personalities that do AR aren't exactly the type of people who cheat themselves. I guess competitiveness gets the better of some.
Many adventure racers are meticulous about the rules but there is definitely a "what can I get away with?" mentality in the sport, e.g. taking a Dixie cup as a canoe bailer or a ziploc bag as a mandatory water container. As long as the mandatory gear isn't needed, that approach is both legal and rewarded, and I'm sure we've all looked at ways we can travel lighter while staying within the rules. Unfortunately, a small subset of racers stretch that concept too far, e.g. "nobody will see us splitting up here, so we can get away with it". This is further fuelled by the fact that they think their competitors might do it too, so they really have no choice.
Around here there used to be quite a divide between the top teams and the rest of the field, so I think sometimes people justified it by the fact that they still wouldn't come close to the winners. Also, I think teams who are just out there for fun on occasion lose sight of the fact that the results might matter to their competitors.
I'm one to "stretch" rules or find work arounds. Like you said, being minimalistic about gear, or something like that... but separating on a race course can't really be compared to that! And sure, sometimes someone will run ahead on an in and out... yea, it's an infraction. And depending on how far ahead they go it's a bad one. But a few years ago we had a team sketch a second map of an o-course and tactically split up to collect controls at the same time!
Ha!
Just heard that the team that sparked this topic was over 1.0 km from one another on a paddling section... twice! And had the audacity to mouth of to a race official in a safety boat when confronted about it.
Pretty low class.
A lot of it comes down to racecourse design in my experience. In a traditional AR, like Raid the North or Raid the North Extreme was, this issue doesn’t come up because CPs are only placed as a ‘safety point’. More recently, CPs are placed to make teams go in specific directions or add extra challenge (eg. out and back or to climb a big hill only to descend back down the same way). If racecourse designers are more discerning about why a given CP is placed, then I think some of this ‘cheating’ starts to become a non-issue.
Race course style is all preference. I like old school and new school. I see what you're saying though, it's impossible to separate for advantage if you all have to pass through CP X as opposed to go in and out. But damn if you don't see some cool stuff on those in and outs!
I can think of two different events where I saw teams separated by 2-3 km. One of them was a respected top team and the other was a mid-pack team that ended up beating us by a small margin in a multi-day race. Of course I've never reported any team for doing this and very few people would, so it's pretty easy to get away with. I agree with Phatty - race course design can prevent it, and if that's not possible, then non-removable SportIdent cards can do the trick. But they have to be truly non-removable, i.e. put on the racer in front of an official.
Why not report it? (I'm not talking minor separation issues, more serious infractions that are considerably advantageous, in clear violation of the rules and generally dangerous.)
Good question. In some circumstances (big prize at stake, top team involved, dangerous location), I guess I would. But, well... It's a small community. It's not worth creating rifts. It seems petty to worry about rankings off the podium. No good reason, I suppose, but we've all seen this happen yet I know very few people who have ever reported it to a race director. We *do* tell each other and roll our eyes though.
Yea, I understand about the small community thing. You can't really afford to lose a team or cause a stink without unnecessary drama.
It's just that I hate it when people show disrespect to their competitors and to the race director. Plus, while the bottom of the pack generally aren't all that concerned with placement it is always such a treat to see a team NOT come last for the first time, or to place top five for the first time... it's always so exciting for them. (I know it was for me!) So when someone is potentially cheating them out of a spot it really gets my goat.
Also, a report may not get any result since most RDs would need proof (my best friend who I believed 100% reported a team separating to me once... couldn't penalize them on his word though). But, the next race I hosted I made sure to position myself in the middle of a tight O-section and sure enough caught them splitting.
It was just a case of them being a new team, trying to be super competitive against a couple of teams who were a country mile stronger, and not really appreciating the significance of the situation. After the penalty they received it never happened again and they all continue to race responsibly.
the bottom of the pack generally aren't all that concerned with placement
Ah, you've hit another hot button (and sent me off on a tangent)! That might be true for some but I can remember when placing 33rd vs. 37th was a big deal. We were never (and still aren't) concerned about prizing but placement always mattered. We analyzed our performance relative to teams we competed against in multiple races and celebrated any evidence of minor improvement. Most RDs have little experience at the bottom of the pack so it can be hard for them to understand the motivations and concerns of racers who have no chance at the podium, i.e. the people who pay most of the bills. Fairness matters to racers at all levels. I remember a race that had penalties for errors on course but the penalties were only imposed on the top teams, then the volunteer got busy and figured that the lower level teams didn't matter anyway. I heard complaints from teams who were well off the podium but deserved to be ranked one or two places higher. The principle of the thing mattered to them even though no prizes were involved.
Well there you go, it does matter. :^)
I guess I'm just thinking of a few regulars in our community who are seemingly only concerned with finishing and challenging themselves. I probably shouldn't have spoken for them, but really, those are the words they used with me so I guess I'm not too far off base. Still, deep down, I'd be willing to bet that they might not care if they are listed low, but it still feels good to be listed higher than others!
I'm with you... when I started racing I was always concerned with placement even if it was for last versus second last! I'm a competitive sort and have been known to have boast about filling the bailer with more "water" than my teammate!
I'm coming a little late to this conversation, but here's another option: When you see a team separated on the course, let them know that you notice. A few years back we came across two members of a 4-person team waiting at the bottom of a hill. Their stronger teammates were about a mile ahead, punching an out-and-back. I made some joke about them becoming a two-person team.
As it turned out, we found ourselves racing against them the last few miles to be the second finishers. They knew that we knew about their infraction, and they felt a little sheepish. To their credit, or perhaps out of fear of being reported, they offered to hang back so we could finish ahead of them. We declined and both teams finished together in a big pack. But to their surprise we had a few more CP's than they did!
So there is race karma. No need to get nasty. Try mild corrective action first.
That worked out well! I often ask a separated team where their other members are. Even if I can't make them race fairly, I can at least enjoy the pleasure that a little sarcasm provides. ;-)
Some interesting points here. Like Phatty I believe that course design can eliminate most or all of this, but in some instances there will not be enough resources or suitable terrain to do everything the RD wants.
I've seen many things on the race course that are upsetting. Sometimes infuriating and sometimes just irritating. I've seen RD's encourage 'cheating' under certain circumstances and once even had a team who'd quit the race get airlifted back onto the course right in front of us (as we were about to hook up to some ropes) and we were forced to wait!! There will always be grey areas and judgement calls and I understand how racers (particularly in distress) will justify their actions or creatively interpret the intent of a 'rule'.
There have been a couple of times over the years where we have stretched the limits, but we always managed to justify it in our own minds... only did it when someone was sick/struggling and we were out of contention.... but this thread makes me think - just because in my mind there's a podium and then everyone else doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. If we saved 10 minutes by leaving a sick member partway down on a hill and then finish in 20th only 9 minutes in front of 21st, that may have been a big deal to the 21st team??
If we are at an intersection on the bike and not quite sure what to do, and one member rides out (alone) a couple hundred meters to look at something and then returns - is that cheating. If so I have likely been guilty of that. What if it was 400 meters, 600m.... 2 km? At what point do we ALL agree that is cheating.
Worst case would be if you did something like that and then something happened at the front and you ended up placing... it would be pretty humiliating when you had to stand up and say "uh, we all didn't quite make it to CP39"
Fortunately in 99% of the races we do it's not an option or a consideration.
Solution: Allow solo competitors. Run your own race.
Actually, at the US Rogaine champs a few years ago, I passed up an opportunity to get one last control that was only 100 meters or less off the trail because my teammate was too exhausted and mega-blister footsore to risk leaving the trail. Yet several other teams were seen splitting up at this point. Requiring both competitors to punch in at every control point sounds like a possible solution. I'd assume that it would be possible for the "non-removable" wristband to be quickly and easily cut off in the event of needing to treat a medical emergency like a wasp sting, snakebite, etc. Of course it couldn't be reattached and would result in dq, but for safety reasons, ability to remove in an emergency is essential.
Are there any 24 hr plus solo ARs or Rogaines around? As an RD I'd be a bag of stress the whole time if I were hosting the thing!
There are some 24-hr solo ARs but I agree with you. Having a teammate is a huge safety factor.
I believe international rogaining rules require 2-5 team members.
BTW we had non-removable wristbands at Untamed New England this past weekend. They were taken off, checked and replaced at different points during the race. For short periods of time, we also had non-removable wristbands on our boats and our bikes!
They could have been removed with scissors or knife in a medical emergency but they couldn't have been put back on. (Knife is mandatory gear.)
That was a neat idea. I don't recall anyone checking ours last year though... but I do remember a lot of lizards so, yea.
Untamed makes two races in a row that have used "team punch" checkpoints. It caught us by surprise on the first CP at Untamed... being a paddle punch on a small island, everyone is accustomed to letting just one person get out of the boat and duck into the brush. Quite effective.
The bracelets were collected at Untamed this year. We saw a couple of teams miss one of the "team punch" checkpoints. The people punching the passport failed to notice that it was a "team punch" and the rest were waiting on the water. I don't know what the consequences were.
Well, I'm glad my teammate noticed, though we certainly lost some time here. So I hope there was a consequence for others. Looking back, it seems that many teams anticipated that CP1 would be a team punch.
I am jumping in late here, but this is my take from a sort of an outsider point. I am shot the video at Untamed this year and Primal Quest last year. What I have noticed is that the AR world is small. Everybody knows who cheats. To me being know as a cheater is worst than a penalty on course.
re. FB...I think a team member or two going for a quick scout is borderline but have done it and don't see a huge issue with it because they athletes have to return for their team members and then allmove together from there, so yes, the 100 m separation rule is broken but if it saves a worn out or injured 'mate from travelling extra distance, then there is a safety consideration that wins out in my opinion. Take a look at eco-challenge 2003 Fiji, Ian Adamson gets separated from his team for over 1 hour as they split up on the island. Illegal? Yes. Was he disqualified? No, he went home with prize money.
Oh, by the way, I'd like all your medals back FB.
I'm pretty sure the same type of thing happened last year at world's with no dq either, and I think it was the first or second place team.
I remember seeing Adamson's separation that year... that was something! And caught on camera too!
Firstly, when our first trek showed up on the spot tracker at Wilderness Traverse this year, someone was dispatched to my house and confiscated all past medals before I got home... :-)
Second, it has been a constant problem in some (not all) "big" races that front running or high profile teams are often given a pass (or modified penalty) for breaking rules that are clearly stated at the outset. (sometimes the sponsor or the story is 'more important' than the race?!?!).
Lastly - WE have never taken liberties (of any sort) when we were still racing vs 'out of the "RACE" and just making our way to the finish' ... unless beer on the course is a 'liberty' :-)
There are a lot of mixed messages in the actions of RD's and as a result many teams will push the limits of what they can 'get away' with. There are many grey areas, variables and unforseen events in this sport. Sometimes the RD's get it right and sometimes they don't (IMHO). It was discussed in another thread, but at UNE this year it was stated that we were not to drag the boats... most teams did not even attempt to carry them, it soon became apparent (for several reasons) that there would be no enforcement of the rule. In my opinion this was a flagrant breaking of the rules. One that should have been penalized (at least) and one which I ultimately broke myself out of pure frustration.
The RD did nothing about it and in my opinion (I seem to have a lot of these) he handled it properly. This was the best thing to do for the race and I can accept that. I hope that in the future they put similar challenges in the races, but put them later in the race, when teams are more spread out and less frantic and then strictly enforce the rule(s).
But it was funny at UNE when teams would say "there's the camera guy, pick up the boat." or Team Adventure World, They were laughing so hard that they couldn't pick it up.
I've had a situation a few times where literally every team technically should be penalized. No point really. I did make sure they knew though! (A little easier feat when you've only got a dozen teams, most of whom are sleeping that night at your house.)
You can count on your fingers how many times a RD has issued penalties here in the Maritimes.
I had the misfortune of DQ'ing a team this year from Race the Phantom for breaking a few of our rules. They were separated on the course on several occasions, were warned by Staff not to do it and continued, the real kicker was the use of cell phones or walkies to communicate when separated so it was thought out. The main reason we felt our hand was forced on the DQ was the refusal to follow the event staff's direction not to separate. It was an unfortunate situation, as a RD we have certain rules that must be followed, mostly for safety reasons.
Dragging the boats at UNE was a bit frustrating, our cart broke 100m into the portage section so we were forced to carry a canoe and a kayak with out the use of a cart for the portage sections. I solo portaged the canoe through Moose Alley and actually managed to pass a number of teams until one refused to let me get by.....thanks guys. I was disappointed that no one was penalized for dragging the boats, especially since it was a stated rule, but I imagine a few CCs got some boat charges in the end. I wouldn't want to be the one to try and decide what an appropriate penalty would be in that case, but I do know the portaging wrecked our feet and we paid for it on the trek.....maybe we should have drug ours too?
I heard lore of a beast portaging like the fate of mankind depended on him... that was you NSAR?!?! My dog has good taste.
Our concern at Untamed New England about boat dragging was damage to the boats, not some higher strategic design or sanctity of the bottom of those canoes/kayaks. Ultimately, the "penalty" came in the form of $ teams would pay for boat damage and that was why I emphasized the point pre-race.
The outfitter did assess some boat damage and the racers have paid the $ (this is one reason we wanted wrist bands with your team numbers on all the boats).
Fair point, FB, about the congestion on Moose Alley and while I figured there'd be some backlog I had no idea of the conga line that formed.
I figured it was more a boat damage issue....there were some nice green ribbons of boat bottoms in the Alley when we made it through. We certainly learned a lot about portaging this year. LOL
untamedadventur
If people had carried the boats the line would have been largely avoided and if teams that couldn't/wouldn't carry had let the others pass it would not have been an issue.
I saw some bizarre things... guys moving 20-30 feet between rest stops right in the tighest spots on the trail?... guys blocking 'traffic' with their boats while they went to look for suitable 'sticks' to use as handles... it was always guys, as gurlz are much smarter :-) ... these things are tough for an RD to plan for
If it was later in the race it might also have been avoided, but you can only work with the terrain you're 'given'. If that was the biggest 'issue' on a three day course then it's a pretty successful race.
All that said, it some of the coolest video of the race. Some of the racers looked like they were 3 days in already. This is why I like to shoot instead of racing. That shit looks hard! My camera is only 1pound. I agree gurlz are smarter (hope my wife see this)
This discussion thread is closed.