Discussion: Noooo!

It's cursed!

It's ok, my hamstrings are often tight, I am used to it. Long run on Thursday?

Not a chance! Not doing anything more than 40 mins until the weekend is through, not after paying those late fees! Hopefully the weekend will be fine and I'll be back to proper training next week. Although maybe, just maybe, Rob might be here by then. We shall see.

I'm doing some upper body strength at about 8/8.15 at Payne Whitney tomorrow if either of you is up for it? A rest day from the running.

Last time I checked Jack Daniels, 78 sec for 400 m interval means 39 sec for 200 m, no wander you feel pain - you are running way too fast. May be you need to read it again, or just go to Attackpoint:Training:Paces tool, and please stick to those numbers, there is no advantage to run faster than you should, only increased chance of injury. 37-38 sec would be appropriate; even it may feel easier than you are used to run 200m.

Maybe he isn't doing Jack Dadiniels. Usain Bold runs sub 20 sec 200m without being able to run marathon in 90 minutes. With long recovery and long warmup that 33 sec might be just good strength training - for the butt too.

Boris, have you tried to figure out any butt excersise similar to those eccentric exercises (heel drops) they say magically heals achilles tendonitis. Tendons are tendos no matter where they are located, so trying to do some "eccentric butt drops" might work.

I don't know why everyone treats Jack Daniels like a god (at least on attackpoint)... just a small pet peeve of mine (sorry). But I can understand that it is nice to have a reference as to what pace to run intervals at. I guess that's the attraction. But just as a side comment, not all the best runners in the world train according to Jack Daniels training plan... there are other exercise physiologist out there.... okay, ranting over :-/

Well, it's probably fair to call Daniels a God. I mean, he has been called the "World's Best Coach" AND he has a pair of Olympic medals. While I agree with you that his books and ideas shouldn't be considered gospel, the basic concepts aren't really that different from most other philosophies... in other words, wouldn't most coaches agree that, for distance running training, there's no reason to run all-out track intervals? Run the pace or go home, right?

Agree, there are good reasons to listen to the guy. I tried to read his book, but I found it so boring... and I'm an exercise physiologist. I guess I'm not a fan. Mostly because here in Switzerland nobody talks about Daniel's formula and on attackpoint it seems like people know nothing else. And I don't think that Boris should feel like he did something wrong, because he ran faster than the formula told him to, he should think "Man, I am wicked fast today". And I don't agree, I think long distance runners should do all-out sprints. Like Jagge said, it builds strength and speed, it is certainly a way to get faster. I think orienteers often don't do enough of that type of training. Anywho. I'm done. Didn't mean to rant. It doesn't really matter. :-)

I honestly believe we at age 35+ orienteers should do all-out sprints time to time. Just to make sure we still have the strenght to run fast. If we don't do it, we'll one day find out we can't run that fast at all, because some muscles aren't that strong any more - why would they it we don't use them. Weakness may not stop us from jogging our slow forest pace, but that could mean we may not be that agile(?) at running in forest any more - means worse efficiency and we might also get injured in sprint finish (my hamstring did not like the way I tried keep up with Jani Lakanen two weeks ago). But these intervals are actually not distance runnig training training at all, so basicly it's not against Daniels - is formula is for distance rnning training. Objective here is something else. Note, Boris is still young and fast, this was just a side note.

We've totally hijacked Boris' log now. ;-)

It's my understanding that short, very fast intervals are for building strength and increasing efficiency. If you can do that without running as fast as you can, why wouldn't you? Yeah, 200s are the kind of thing that should be very peppy and quick, not at a slower middle distance running pace. But if I went out and ran a 200 as fast as I could, that would be it - no more 200s that day, at least not anywhere near that fast. Doing one isn't very useful, and I might hurt myself doing it. And it's not very relevant - even at the end of an O race, even if it ends on a track, I'm not going to be able to run a 200 at that pace. It just seems to me that it's a pretty rare occasion where you're going to want to run to the point of killing yourself.

Luckily for me I had a top exercise physiologist as a best friend and coach. I can tell you that in all our discussions that this Daniel's stuff never came up. I'm more willing to listen to exercise physiologists like Sandra and Mark T that not only know their stuff but also orienteer. I got my speed work training in playing full pitch 2 on 2 soccer. ;-) won't find that in any book but it subscribes to the consistent training philosophy. Ie make it fun and keep it mixed up. btw my VO2 peaked at 86.2 But what I learned during my brief coaching time is that people try to latch onto a magic formula and that quick fix approach.

The reason I like the Daniels' book is he actually tells you exactly what to do relative to the condition you are in. Mimicking the training of Hussein Bolt for anyone on attackpoint would be a bad idea, they either would not be able to keep it up, or injure themselves.
I don't know about occasionally doing sprints at 35+ (can't remember back that far) but if you try to run hard only on occasion, then you risk injury with no real gains.

@Cristina, yes you are kind of right about interval training, of course its also about running faster and dividing your target distance into manageable bites to run at "race" pace. I don't think any coach on the planet would advise going and doing one 200m flat out: there would be a lot of warming up, speed drill preparation and the session would have at least 4x200 or more (up to 20).

And Boris wasn't just doing one 200; and they weren't flat out, or particularly fast, so I don't really know what point you are trying to make.

If you want to improve your running part of that is doing it faster. Ultimately, interval training is part of that and interval training can be approached in a number of ways. A personal coach is most probably better than using a textbook given that feedback during and after sessions is extremely important.

I would encourage everyone to explore their speed capabilities: just because people like orienteering doesn't mean that some people can't run fast. It's fun and you could become a "sprint specialist".

I guess you are right and and flat out wasn't the best term to be used here and Bolt comparison was just entertainment. What I ment running short intervals a lot faster than daniels formula requests may not be that bad idea. Boris' 33 sec shouldn't be that fast for him, thats only about the pace I do my 200m intervals. Orienteers tend to run such intervals here to maintain speed and keep muscles prepared for fast downhills, sprints, tripping and jumping over ditches and so on. Especially importand for older orienteers, speed and strenght seems to dissappear faster than endurance. And I don't think daniels had orientering in mind while designing his formula and philosophy.

Oh, I wasn't talking about Boris, specifically, just the idea that you should run "flat out". I have no idea if Boris is running his intervals too fast or not...