Discussion: Georgia Navigator Cup Live Results

wow, hotly contested Blue! 19 second spread for top three.

with an average age of those three of?

No comment.

....., a man is as old as he feels

Thanks for having live results going today! It was fun to follow along.

I'm looking at the team results page, and maybe that page isn't official, but I don't think it's calculating the team scores correctly on the basis of not using the correct set of runners for the AWT (average winning time).

From O-USA rules A.35.4.1.a (Intercollegiate) and A.36.5.1.a (Interscholastic): For each Individual Intercollegiate/Interscholastic class, define AWT (the average winning time) as the average of the times of the top three individual competitors in that class (for Championships use only times from Team Championship-eligible competitors).

My emphasis underlined. For example, in Intercollegiate Varsity, I believe that the only teams competing are West Point, Univ. of Washington, and Univ. of Montana, but there are some athletes (Lily A and Dylan P) not on those teams who had top-3 results and whose times are listed in the ones used to create the AWT.

(It could also be that I'm misunderstanding how the eligibilities, teams, and rules work, or I'm looking at an out-of-date rules document or something.)

EDIT: I was misinterpreting how the eligibilities work.

What event software are you using?

To use the names/example given, aren't Lily A and Dylan P "Team Championship-eligible competitors"? They meet all eligibility requirements in A.37.3 and A.37.4.

Being eligible is different than being on a team.

On a different note, thanks to GAOC. Great venue & event so far. Not sure I'm a fan of the Georgia weather being the same as the Massachusetts weather--don't I get some benefit from flying 1000 miles south? :)

Things I've particularly appreciated so far:
-Friday's middle felt like a middle. Today's Classic felt like a classic. Red in my case.
-Mobile phone results--I'd much rather scroll on my phone than jockey around a monitor or two. Would love to see a local WiFi solution rather than a cellular webpage. I learned today that our Canadian friends need to be on a pricey international plan to get cellular results, which I hadn't thought about. I guess there are pros & cons to each version.
-The model event. Nothing long or elaborate but it gave me a calibrated feel to mapped ditches, terraces (ruined earthen wall symbol), and rock piles.
-the pre-ordered lunch (chicken chili, cornbread, dessert soda) hit the spot, and looked like it was being run by a local JROTC team (ie parents), likely as a fundraiser. Great way to outsource (for the event organizers) but still keep the money in the O-community. Win-win-win, if you ask me.

Are the split results from today, Saturday, posted somewhere? (I found the Friday splits.)

Where did you find any splits?

@Jon

Aha, reading it that makes more sense! There are different eligibility requirements for those seeking individual champs and those seeking team champs.

I was reading it that they had to be on an eligible team (ie at least 3 runners), as opposed to an ineligible team, I guess.

Thanks!

Boris, from here, click on Live Results, and then click on Results by Class. These have splits; the Results by Course don't.

@Boris and Ing

Click on the "GNC Live Results" link at the very top of this thread. Then click on the "Results by Class" for whichever day. The class results have splits, the course results do not.

with an average age of those three of?

I was too busy celebrating the performance of the athletes to notice

For anyone still in the SE this evening, SpaceX is attempting a launch of its big Falcon Heavy rocket tonight just after local sunset, which could make for some interesting lighting. It was supposed to go last night but they were late with prep and it slipped to tonight (Sun, Jan 15). Launch window is 5:56-6:34 PM EST. Local sunset in Atlanta is 5:52, so the sky will still be a little bright. Best lighting contrast is about 15 mins into the window. Any later and it will be in darkness for the first part of the climb and then exit shadow.

On this flight the two side boosters will do a backflip and fly back to land simultaneously at KSC, so the dry N2 poofs and boostback burns illuminated by the sun could be quite interesting.

I made a crude launch profile to check the viewing across the area. Technically it would be visible from the 2nd floor windows of the Hampton Inn Lagrange, but it'll just clear the trees there. A better bet is at the Atlanta airport if you are on your way home. Dunno if there are widows in the terminal, but get to the south end of any of them and look SE. The wide airfield gives a nice low SE horizon:



Better still if you happen to be in the air at the time - look low in the SE. Here's another simulated view from the beach near Charleston, SC. The launch customer (Uncle Sam) doesn't allow telemetry or video of the 2nd stage after MECO, so the red track shown here stops there. The 2nd stage will continue to be visible after that, and the two side boosters (which separate 2.5 mins after launch) will be flying backwards just below this red line. This launch will be flying ESE direct-to-GEO, so it will not be traveling up the east coast. Only visible from the SE US.

Follow the action and watch the livestream online. Nice launch updates to keep track of the status here: https://spaceflightnow.com/2023/01/14/falcon-heavy...;

There's a live view of pad 39A at the spaceflightnow link above. Note the cranes and large launch tower under construction on the right. This is the gantry for the new "Starship" rocket, which they are planning to launch from here and also from Boca Chica, TX. It's a monster. It dwarfs the already huge Falcon Heavy. What's even crazier, the Starship booster will attempt to flyback and land right next to this tower, which will catch it in mid-air with a pair of giant chopsticks (yet to be installed) so it doesn't have to carry its own landing legs. :) Just nuts!

Thank you to all the Georgia O Club volunteers and organizers, and also the support clubs that provided hot lunches on Saturday and Sunday! Hope everyone had a great time and enjoyed the woods as much as I did!

Agree 100% with Janet, fabulous weekend. Many thanks.

Great event. Fantastic Finish setup for spectator pleasure.
Live Results is the way to go.
Temperature could have been warmer at the Finish but it was perfect in the woods, I thought.

A fantastic event all-around. Thank you, GAOC volunteers & organizers!

In addition to my previous kudos (now way up higher), I enjoyed the SI Air all weekend. Have always enjoyed SI Air in sprints, but it was nice in the woods too. Can reach over a rootstock and punch, no need to clambor down into a ditch and back out to punch, being blocked at a control is really not a thing anymore, etc. Thanks GAOC.

And, today's Extreme O was, as always, just fun. Thanks VOC and extras.

And for the elephant in the room, thanks to all the stalwarts (Clare, Mike, etc) who jumped in to help move the awards ceremony along. It was great to see so many participants, particularly youth, but we have to find a way to recognize all the great accomplishments, photos on the side, etc but not take 2!! hours.

I'll join in on the kudos to the GAOC organizing team. Our whole crew from Montana had a fabulous time all four days! The VOC-led Extreme-O this morning was a great way to finish off the trip.

Quick question: are the full combined interscholastic results posted somewhere? I can only see the top three in each category on the live results?

Boris, same. I've been looking for them! (We had to do some math last evening to figure out Max's final position ...).

And, I'll pile on with my kudos to the organizers. Really enjoyable weekend all around.

Wonderful to see and hear that so many of you enjoyed the GNC. I am well aware that most of you know what a tremendous effort it is to put on any O event, but especially one of this size. So your kind kudos are especially meaningful. We were thrilled with the large attendance and great competition.

RouteGadget is now loaded for all three days of GNC. Looking forward to seeing the routes, whether they be the straight line raw spaghetti or the more convoluted cooked spaghetti type.

If it's possible to upload splits to Attackpoint, where many of us keep track of our races, that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks GAOC for a top-notch event in every respect! My first GNC, but I'll be back.

@BorisGr, @peggyd, et al , full combined interscholastic results are now posted at our live results page here

Thanks @fzendt!!

Working on AP splits. Saturday up. Getting pretty close with Friday and Sunday. Sorry for the delay.

All up now.

Thanks, Charlie!!

Just want to extend my big thanks to anyone involved in organizing this 4-day weekend of excellent orienteering! We greatly enjoyed all of it!

Blue courses were designed very skillfully both days at FDR park, making the best use of terrain.

Thanks again to all the volunteers who made it a successful event. I'm curious, how long has GAOC been hosting the Navigator Cup?

GAOC hosted its first A-meet in 1985, at the same park FDR, with the same mapper Bill Cheatum.

Me and the bairns loved it. Thanks a bunch.

Sorry to once again be a pain, but is it possible to see complete individual Intercollegiate results somewhere? In particular, I would like to be able to show local Montana papers that Jan was the fastest competitor, despite not being eligible for the individual title.

GAOC hosted its first A-meet in 1985, at the same park FDR, with the same mapper Bill Cheatum.

The 1985 copy of that map that I have lists Bill as having produced the basemap, and Roger Underwood for fieldwork (and Steve Lamb for cartography).

(Although, one might suspect that version of the map was... lightly fieldchecked... and the bulk of the information was probably on the base.)

Odd that Jan doesn't show in either the combined time classic results, nor in the IS results. You can see he is the fastest runner on RedX in the AP splits however...

Jan L falls into a big crack in the OUSA Jr Nationals' Rules. See “Championship Eligibility” rule A.12.2.1. Since Jan L is not a US citizen or permanent resident, he isn't eligible for the ICVM Individual championship. But the IC Team competition does not have that eligibility requirement, hence Jan L is eligible to compete on his IC Team (University of Montana Team). But to compete on the IC team you must run in the ICVM or ICVF category. So he signed up to run ICVM and checked the “not IC eligible” checkbox on the registration page. Since he’s not IC eligible, he’s not listed in the ICVM results. Since he didn't run M-20 he doesn't show up in the combined classic results. Fortunately AP lists the results by course and he does show up there in Red-X. It all makes perfect sense - except for the schizophrenic OUSA rules.

JJ is correct to point that out. The FDR map has been a GAOC project since 1977. For the 1985 version, I was taking aerial photographs of the park, transferring detail to the Pine Mountain basemap, which had USGS interpolated contours, then driving 2.5 hours to the park at night to get to Roger's desk in time for him to plan the next days fieldwork. It took real fieldwork skill, in those days, to make an accurate map without GPS and a georeferenced base. Fortunately, Roger had his ancestry search hobby as a diversion while he was there and gave his excellent fieldwork to Steve Lamb, the cartographer for VOC's Oak Mountain State Park. A later version of FDR , with Pat Dunlavey's photogrammetric basemap, brought GAOC into the 21st Century. Two decades later, LIDAR/GPS and OCAD's sophistication created another level of detail that nevertheless needed to be fieldchecked with the attention to detail that honors the history of FDR State Park.

Bill, It is a great map (and I had a chance to do a test run on the 1990's map back in the day.)
I think I spotted some features on the new map that probably came via the OCAD hill shading extraction. Great feature and it saves dozens of hours in the field, eh?

@ fred and boris:
Not a complaint, but a few suggestions that may take a little time as tired volunteers recover from the busy weekend:

Perhaps the ineligible runner(s) could still be shown on the IC combined results table, just without a place number? Presumably the base score from the top 3 eligible runners could be used to compute the points that would have been earned by an ineligible runner, although that might have to be done manually if the software automatically selects the top 3. Alternatively, perhaps GAOC could also post the combined 2-day total times for IS and IC competitors even though that is not what was used for scoring?

@Boris, they do have a list of IC individual times posted for each day. So you can show the papers that he was first for each day, and self-compute the combined total times.

Also, as far as placings, on the various IS 2-day results, everyone has a consecutive place number. Those who have identical points scores should be listed with identical places, not with consecutively increasing ones: exanples: the last 3 in ISVM should all be listed as 37th, not 37,38,39. Similarly, the last 6 in ISJVF should all be 14th, the last 12 in ISJVM should all be 26th...


In the IS 2-day individual table, the results for most of the classes list all of the competitors in the class, but the Air Force and Collegiate lists are truncated to show only the top 3. Perhaps that could be corrected to show them all?

Speaking of eligibility, I'd like to know why what appeared to be an IS Intermediate School Team, from Tahoma HS in Washington State, was relegated to the Club Team category -- which they won by virtue of being the only team. However, they would have WON -- easily -- as a School Team.

Perhaps there is some detail of which I'm unaware, but as registrar for the 2022 Junior Nationals, I believe I would have accepted the multiple exceptions which would have put them in the IS Intermediate School Team category.

FDR Event Center Base Example
@gordhun Fieldwork time is still spent checking to see whether it is a ditch or a gully and where the ends of the terraces are plus a whole lot of other features that may or may not be there. Those gullies on the Finish area have been graded since this LIDAR was taken.

@GuyO I assume you are referring to the “Tahoma Bears” COC ISI Club Team. From GAOC’s perspective, they were not “relegated to the Club Team category”. They registered for that category.

Bill,
There is definitely no getting around having to do the field work.
But we were both doing fieldwork back in the last century, pre-LiDAR, pre-OCAD.
Back in those day we would have been walking along those streams, pace counting and taking a new bearing every time the stream changed direction. Same with trails.
Now with hill shading we know something is there and we just have to go check it, not spend so much time doing a grid search for whatever might be there, triangulating to plot it, etc. With streams and trails I'm sure you are just doing the same as me and walking along to verify whether the trail is a cart path, large trail or small, whether the stream is permanent or seasonal, etc. We already know it is there and the direction it is going. Usually! Sometimes trails show up where there is no trace on LiDAR.
It may not even take less time but you can be more productive and produce beautiful maps like that.

@fzendt: "Relegated" was the wrong term, because Tahoma Bears did register themselves as a club team, as opposed to being moved to that category. However, they did so apparently because the parent who coordinated Jr Natls registration for Tahoma was told that they did not qualify as a school team.

I was told this by that parent during awards, but had no way to corroborate what he/she said. I acknowledge that there might have been some other detail that resulted in that guidance, which was not disclosed to me.

@mikeminium Thank you for your good suggestions. The gaorienteering.org/live/ page has been updated to include the two-day times for all IS and IC classes (IS & IC Combined Times). Ineligible runners are shown in the results according to their finish position. Also the “Place” numbering for IS/IC classes (in IS Individual Results) has been improved to show runners with the same score as having the same place.

@GuyO @fzendt
Re: Tahoma Bears

Not all parties had the same understanding or knowledge of the relevant regulations. At least one of the runners was in a feeder middle school to Tahoma. At least one of the parents was told that made the team ineligible as a school team, and they had to run as a club team. Technically, as no exemption forms were filed (to my knowledge) then technically the team indeed was only eligible as a club team. However, my understanding was the parents were not aware of the option of exemption forms or were told they were not an option. Had the exemption forms been filed, they would have been clear exemptions and certainly rubber stamped. In that case, the team would have been eligible as a school team, and by a literal reading of the regulations, would not then have been eligible as a club team. But in the end - no harm, no foul. The Tahoma Bears got gold medals as a club team, and one extra school team got a podium finish.

One request for next year: trophies for the club teams. Even small cheap trophies. Some kids don't have access to a school team, and a trophy would mean a lot to them. There were club trophies at the 2022 Junior Nationals. Maybe they can make a comeback in 2024.

@GuyO

As I look at the results,

Tahoma Bears (437.92)
Hillgrove ISI (421.61)

so Hillgrove would still have come in first. Unless I am missing something, perhaps related to a reweighting of AWTs.

Just to clarify, we looked at the rules posted on the GNC webpage which state specifically that all kids must go to the same school and have a school ID. Tahoma ISI team had 2 kids go to 1 Tahoma middle school (Summit Trails), 1 kid go to another Tahoma Middle school (Maple View) and one kid going to Tahoma High School. The rules seemed clear and additionally the COC Registrar said this was not allowed, kind of confirming for us that the rules were specifically written to prevent our situation from occurring.

I’d just say the rules should be more clear that if you are allowed to all run for the same high school team should you all be destined for the same high school eventually, then perhaps the wording could be more clear.

But essentially, it really doesn’t matter. This is all just a fun game and I think all the kids had a blast and were celebrated just fine:). Georgia did a fantastic job and I feel like it could not be done any better so you won’t hear complaints from me.

I was peripherally involved with the debate about that rule (although I was not one of the deciders), and my memory is that people kept coming up with scenarios for every proposed wording that somebody thought would result in the wrong outcome. It seemed intractable.

Haha, Yeah, that sounds about what these kind of things can turn into:). I’m certainly not worried about it.

The first relevant Orienteering USA Rule is A.37.5...

To be eligible as a SCHOOL Team all team members must be enrolled full-time at the same school, as demonstrated by a school ID for the same school, OR have an authorized exception, as demonstrated by an Orienteering USA School Team Exception Form.

Exceptions are enumerated in Rule A.37.6...

Authorized Interscholastic SCHOOL Team exceptions are cases in which the exception has been determined in advance to not harm the intent of the junior competition program. The following exceptions are currently authorized:

a. No ID. Students enrolled at a school that does not issue IDs should use the exception form to authorize eligibility to run for their school

b. Running up. Students may run for any school that they are expected to eventually attend (based on their current residence and typical promotion pathways) with permission of the lower school that they currently attend.

c. Split JROTC programs. Students who are enrolled in a JROTC program that crosses school borders may form a SCHOOL team with their JROTC teammates with permission of the school that they currently attend.

d. Alternative schools. Students who are enrolled in an alternative school (such as a charter school, choice school, or pull-out school) where sports are typically offered through another school may participate with that other school with permission of the school that they currently attend.

e. Homeschooled teams. Individuals who are homeschooled may form a SCHOOL team with other homeschooled individuals from the same geographical area. This area is defined as their county or city of residence or the public school district in which they reside, whichever area is geographically larger.

The Running Up exception is what would have applied here.

For the sake of completeness, the Rule governing Club teams is A.37.7...

To be eligible as a CLUB Team

a. All team members must be primary Orienteering USA regular members of the same Orienteering USA sanctioned Orienteering Club.

b. The team must not be eligible as a SCHOOL or JROTC team.

c. The Coach of the Club Team shall provide a letter stating that all members meet the eligibility requirements.

@CowBell: I stand corrected.
Tahoma Bears would have been 2nd as a school team. (must have been thinking only about Day 1 results...)

I'll also note that the most notorious case ever handled by the USOF Grievance Committee involved Interscholastic team eligibility at a meet hosted by GAOC (which is not to say that this year's situation would have been controversial, it's just an interesting historical fact).

About the trophies, I found this from 2017:

"Brunton Compass donated the first three trophies, as well as 100 controls and 100 manual punches, for that very first US IS Championships. The three Brunton Cups, as they were known, reached the end of their useful lives last year, their plinths full of plaques and their chrome peeling. Since Henry County High School happened to hold all three trophies at that time, Georgia Orienteering Club (GAOC) offered to bear the cost of replacement and donate them to Orienteering USA. They were graciously accepted by Peter Goodwin at the 2017 Georgia Navigator Cup national meet in January. Since then, Henry County has won two more championships and since OUSA did not have trophies for those classes, GAOC is donating two more new trophies.
Unbeknownst to Robin and Steve, the other officers of GAOC decided to petition the board of OUSA to name the new cups the Shannonhouse Trophies in honor of their contributions to interscholastic orienteering. The motion was made at the board meeting in Concord, CA, on March 25, 2017, and was passed unanimously."

Thanks for bringing that up Charlie. I did not recall the trophies being named for the Shannonhouse’s - a fact that definitely needs to be mentioned when they are awarded.

Similarly, the traveling Air Force trophies were donated by Orienteering Louisville when one of their local AF JROTC units spent several years at the top of their game. There’s never been a traveling trophy for club teams, but perhaps some other club or donor will fill that need?

Some clubs that have hosted the IS/IC have budgeted $1000-2000 to provide permanent trophies for the top IS teams in all classes, but this isn’t a requirement of hosting the event.

I fully acknowledge this as a ridiculous question, but some of my kids want to know if any results for the Extreme-O have been posted anywhere. Sorry if I missed these!

@BorisGr The Extreme-O is sponsored by the Vulcan Orienteering Club, VOC (Birmingham, AL). Results for the X-O are posted on VOC's RouteGadget page. We will add the results to the GNC live results page also.