Discussion: If you have any questions just ask
in: Grudge Run (Aug 16–18, 2013 - Gilmour, ON, CA)
Oct 11, 2012 2:31 PM
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I'll try and keep tabs on this thread so if you have any questions about the event or how to register, please shoot me a message. Here are some links to help you get more info.
www.grudgerun.com
www.facebook.com/grudgerun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSLWioODTz0
www.grudgerun.com
www.facebook.com/grudgerun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSLWioODTz0
Oct 11, 2012 5:18 PM
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I find it mildly amusing that the revenue projections are based on the number of entrants that surpasses the total number of finishers in events of similar duration in all of Canada in a given year. But hope you guys can pull it off... the Barkley can use some competition!
Oct 11, 2012 6:30 PM
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Tough Mudder brought in over 21k entrants into there event in the first Ontario Event, and that is the crowd we are looking to pull from. 21k people with no prizes and an extremely poorly organized event.
Most people out there to be honest have never even heard of most of the adventure races. Outside of the folks who I have talked to on this forum, not a single person has heard of Wilderness Traverse or any other event. Many we have talked to haven't even heard of Tough Mudder. There is alot of room for growth with these races. Time will tell how much we will be able to raise for our charities. This is of course entirely put on to raise money for charity and not to generate revenue stream for the organizers.(Thats my personal grudge)
We are not expecting to cap out on each division. Far from it. However we are able to run the event with that many people.
Most people out there to be honest have never even heard of most of the adventure races. Outside of the folks who I have talked to on this forum, not a single person has heard of Wilderness Traverse or any other event. Many we have talked to haven't even heard of Tough Mudder. There is alot of room for growth with these races. Time will tell how much we will be able to raise for our charities. This is of course entirely put on to raise money for charity and not to generate revenue stream for the organizers.(Thats my personal grudge)
We are not expecting to cap out on each division. Far from it. However we are able to run the event with that many people.
Oct 11, 2012 6:50 PM
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Yes, but Tough Mudder is anything but tough, it can be done by hundreds of thousands of people; what you are proposing has a very high bar. First-time hundred-milers in the western U.S. draw about 50 people (and cost $$$$$ to put on). Cap-free, established long ultras draw about 300 people. The latest expedition-length adventure race out West drew 14 teams. The largest, annual, established North American rogaine (in Nova Scotia) attracts just over 300 people, most of them in the shorter categories. This all leaves me hoping you're good with budgeting and promotion!
Oct 11, 2012 7:00 PM
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Bash:
Welcome to the Ontario race calendar, Grudgerun. It's always great to see more people running around outdoors.
I am a volunteer adventure race organizer but I am very glad that a few people are trying (usually unsuccessfully in the adventure race world) to make a living from organizing events. Having done considerable volunteer work in orienteering, I would love to see more paid organizers get involved in that sport too. When quality professional organizers get involved and participants are willing to pay a fair price for their services, the end result is more events for the rest of us.
Charity events are wonderful and definitely have their place on the spectrum. Can you explain why you have a grudge against organizers attempting to make a living from their work? Very few of us work simply out of atruism. Why should they?
I don't know anyone who has become rich by organizing AR/O events but likely in the obstacle racing world, a few people are making money. But is that a problem? Is it only acceptable to make money by working in a cubicle or on an assembly line? Even though I'm not a fan of those events myself, I can't begrudge the organizers their income if they've come up with a concept that has captured people's imaginations so much that they're willing to sign up in droves and pay big bucks to do it. I only wish I could think of something that lucrative! :)
I am a volunteer adventure race organizer but I am very glad that a few people are trying (usually unsuccessfully in the adventure race world) to make a living from organizing events. Having done considerable volunteer work in orienteering, I would love to see more paid organizers get involved in that sport too. When quality professional organizers get involved and participants are willing to pay a fair price for their services, the end result is more events for the rest of us.
Charity events are wonderful and definitely have their place on the spectrum. Can you explain why you have a grudge against organizers attempting to make a living from their work? Very few of us work simply out of atruism. Why should they?
I don't know anyone who has become rich by organizing AR/O events but likely in the obstacle racing world, a few people are making money. But is that a problem? Is it only acceptable to make money by working in a cubicle or on an assembly line? Even though I'm not a fan of those events myself, I can't begrudge the organizers their income if they've come up with a concept that has captured people's imaginations so much that they're willing to sign up in droves and pay big bucks to do it. I only wish I could think of something that lucrative! :)
Oct 11, 2012 7:39 PM
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I agree that Tough Mudder is anything but tough. Fun yes. Tough? Clearly no. I don't particularly begrudge anyone for trying to make any living off of what they feel like they should. Personally I have always felt that public events that are entirely put on for profit are a little bit off putting.I owuld personally rather enter an event that was there to give back to some charity. I have been involved in a number of events in other circles and a 50/50 split for organization and prize money is very common. Granted there are of course things that need to be paid for, security, insurance, safety crews etc... There are a large number of organizations that are more than willing to donate time and effort to putting on an event that is there to raise money for a cause. It takes dedication and arm twisting to get companies to give these days.
It is of course up to a person's own self to decide for themselves what there motivations are. When we first started putting this together we talked about whether or not we wanted to try and generate income off of this event. We decided very early that we didn't want any income from this.
For me, I find it very difficult to earn income on something(my idea or not), yet ask people to volunteer there time and effort to do any kind of work. We were approached very early by people that wanted to volunteer to assist and thus the decision was to make this a purely non profit event.Take the people in the video, these are random strangers who want to enter the event and were willing to sign waivers and let me film them for the video. Why? Because they wanted to do something that made them feel fuzzy inside I guess.
When I was at a certain race and won't say what one but I am sure you can guess, I talked to a number of the volunteers. Many of them had no idea that the event was not a non profit event. Almost all of the volunteers I talked to thought that the event was there purely for raising money for the associated charity.
Now again, I am not against people making money. I do that every day. We all need to make money. But I do think that if an event is for profit,the profit should be shared amongst the staff putting it on. Wrapping up people as unpaid workers in a bow tie by colling them volunteers doesn't sit well in my stomache. No, I am not nor was I a begrudged volunteer, I was a race participant. Again, I am not passing judgement against profit companies that use volunteers, I just wouldn't feel comfortable having people do work for me while I get compensated and they do not.
Now lets go beyond the ethics as I really don't see the point. I hate having those discussions. :)
This event is going to be an extremely challenging race to finish. Thats the idea. However, I have personally completed two of the possible courses within 48 hours, and I am by no means an ultra marathoner. One of the things I heard from people is that "No one can run that distance.." Well I would agree, but if you keep yourself to a good pace, run when its easy to, walk when its not, plan your rest, pack light, don't get lost and keep moving. It is possible to finish. A guy told me that he ran a marathon and almost collapsed at the ended and felt light headed until someone gave him a candy at the end of the race and that because of his experience he felt Grudge Run is impossible. Well to that my response is, clearly you didn't pace yourself properly. If you try and run any race to the point where you body is breaking down then you haven't paced yourself.
I would say if you were doing this without electronics and with a map and compass, that this would be somethging that you may not be able to finish. A number of the people that we talked to wouldn't go in a race where you needed a map and compass. Outside of myself I know few people that know the difference between true north and magnetic north. Let alone be able to navigate with a compass.We are trying to reach out to more people that want to be challenged but not entirely lost. Electronics are fully permited and as such this is not an "Orienteering race", more of a Navigational race.
We have high hopes, low expectations and lots of excitement with a dash of reality. If all we end up with is the 50 or so teams then we will consider that a huge success. If we get a hundreds, of people and teams even better. We are not measuring the success of this event on profit or gross revenue but on the knowledge that we had an idea that could help some kids that deserve some help and that we are pushing through to try and make it work. That is what we are measuring this event on. :) I hope this answeres your questions. If not please continue.
It is of course up to a person's own self to decide for themselves what there motivations are. When we first started putting this together we talked about whether or not we wanted to try and generate income off of this event. We decided very early that we didn't want any income from this.
For me, I find it very difficult to earn income on something(my idea or not), yet ask people to volunteer there time and effort to do any kind of work. We were approached very early by people that wanted to volunteer to assist and thus the decision was to make this a purely non profit event.Take the people in the video, these are random strangers who want to enter the event and were willing to sign waivers and let me film them for the video. Why? Because they wanted to do something that made them feel fuzzy inside I guess.
When I was at a certain race and won't say what one but I am sure you can guess, I talked to a number of the volunteers. Many of them had no idea that the event was not a non profit event. Almost all of the volunteers I talked to thought that the event was there purely for raising money for the associated charity.
Now again, I am not against people making money. I do that every day. We all need to make money. But I do think that if an event is for profit,the profit should be shared amongst the staff putting it on. Wrapping up people as unpaid workers in a bow tie by colling them volunteers doesn't sit well in my stomache. No, I am not nor was I a begrudged volunteer, I was a race participant. Again, I am not passing judgement against profit companies that use volunteers, I just wouldn't feel comfortable having people do work for me while I get compensated and they do not.
Now lets go beyond the ethics as I really don't see the point. I hate having those discussions. :)
This event is going to be an extremely challenging race to finish. Thats the idea. However, I have personally completed two of the possible courses within 48 hours, and I am by no means an ultra marathoner. One of the things I heard from people is that "No one can run that distance.." Well I would agree, but if you keep yourself to a good pace, run when its easy to, walk when its not, plan your rest, pack light, don't get lost and keep moving. It is possible to finish. A guy told me that he ran a marathon and almost collapsed at the ended and felt light headed until someone gave him a candy at the end of the race and that because of his experience he felt Grudge Run is impossible. Well to that my response is, clearly you didn't pace yourself properly. If you try and run any race to the point where you body is breaking down then you haven't paced yourself.
I would say if you were doing this without electronics and with a map and compass, that this would be somethging that you may not be able to finish. A number of the people that we talked to wouldn't go in a race where you needed a map and compass. Outside of myself I know few people that know the difference between true north and magnetic north. Let alone be able to navigate with a compass.We are trying to reach out to more people that want to be challenged but not entirely lost. Electronics are fully permited and as such this is not an "Orienteering race", more of a Navigational race.
We have high hopes, low expectations and lots of excitement with a dash of reality. If all we end up with is the 50 or so teams then we will consider that a huge success. If we get a hundreds, of people and teams even better. We are not measuring the success of this event on profit or gross revenue but on the knowledge that we had an idea that could help some kids that deserve some help and that we are pushing through to try and make it work. That is what we are measuring this event on. :) I hope this answeres your questions. If not please continue.
Oct 11, 2012 9:42 PM
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Sounds like fun! I hope the organizers know that in successful stage races the volunteer to participant ratio is significantly greater than one. That's why there are so few point-to-point hundred-milers, for example, why rogaines are at all possible to organize (usually a single aid station/base camp), and why expedition-format adventure races cost $$$$ to enter.
Oct 11, 2012 9:47 PM
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Bash:
It certainly is a fresh idea, which is always great to see, and it's laudable that you've chosen to support a worthy charity.
As for the mix of paid and volunteer staff at events, I think we in the adventure sports community understand the benefits we get from having a few professional RDs around. It gives us more events, for starters. Also, a high quality adventure event requires a huge time investment by a race director with specialized skills, knowledge and creativity. Safety has to be paramount, countless permissions are needed, and race maps and instructions must be accurate. Few people have these skills, and they tend to be people who could do much better financially in the corporate world but they do this because they have a passion for the sport. Because of this, a number of us are happy to give back to the sport. In fact, it is usually lots of fun to volunteer, especially at races where friends are taking part.
I'd estimate that a typical moderate-sized 30-hour adventure race requires 1500-ish person-hours of pre-event planning, travel, course testing and event weekend work. So if everyone including the highly skilled RD is going to be paid minimum wage ($10.25), the event needs to clear $15,000 after costs. That doesn't happen - not even close. Nobody would be able to afford racing if volunteers needed to be paid in any meaningful way for their time.
I can understand that you may feel differently as someone with another profession to pay the bills but I would urge you not to be so quick to judge professional race directors who put on safe, quality events. There is no reason they should have to work for free - or even for minimum wage. And if people in the sport understand that and are willing to do their part to help, we all benefit.
As for the mix of paid and volunteer staff at events, I think we in the adventure sports community understand the benefits we get from having a few professional RDs around. It gives us more events, for starters. Also, a high quality adventure event requires a huge time investment by a race director with specialized skills, knowledge and creativity. Safety has to be paramount, countless permissions are needed, and race maps and instructions must be accurate. Few people have these skills, and they tend to be people who could do much better financially in the corporate world but they do this because they have a passion for the sport. Because of this, a number of us are happy to give back to the sport. In fact, it is usually lots of fun to volunteer, especially at races where friends are taking part.
I'd estimate that a typical moderate-sized 30-hour adventure race requires 1500-ish person-hours of pre-event planning, travel, course testing and event weekend work. So if everyone including the highly skilled RD is going to be paid minimum wage ($10.25), the event needs to clear $15,000 after costs. That doesn't happen - not even close. Nobody would be able to afford racing if volunteers needed to be paid in any meaningful way for their time.
I can understand that you may feel differently as someone with another profession to pay the bills but I would urge you not to be so quick to judge professional race directors who put on safe, quality events. There is no reason they should have to work for free - or even for minimum wage. And if people in the sport understand that and are willing to do their part to help, we all benefit.
Oct 12, 2012 12:35 AM
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Oh no, I am not judging anyone, by all means everyone should do what they want and feel is right. If we were trying to make a living from this event no doubt we would be taking a salary and likely there would be smaller prizes and less or no fundraising effort. For us though the motivation is not to make money from it. Our goal is to wee that everyone is challeneged to the max in the spirit of what the kids go through that we are trying to support. :)
This discussion thread is closed.