Discussion: Top 5 for GUATS in Spain?

I hope I'm not jinxing them:
http://www.adventureworldmagazineonline.com/advent...

Very tough to predict without an accurate race roster, but I think the Bob Miller Band has a strong shot!

I agree! I was glad to see your picks today. Some people underestimated GUATS going into Untamed New England but they have several racers who have recorded top finishes at Primal Quest and past AR World Championships.

Now if we could just be given a leaderboard somewhere. Not a big deal right now since the teams are all on the same course but I have a feeling this could get quite confusing (an ARWC theme perhaps) so I want them to put something up on their site. I too am expecting Guats to have a stronger second half of the race than first. I have a lot of faith in Untamed to do the same in the second half, of course!

No kidding; the lady who "owns" the Leaderboard stuff is apparently in the field and swamped, so I don't know when we'll see something informative there.

I'm not on the ground this time, but we do have "a guy" -- Brian Schmitz -- there assisting with the tracking devices . . . he wasn't provided a vehicle (don't get me started...), so their original plan was for him to direct the other staff/volunteers in the field on how to reset the tracking devices and handle the battery issues etc. This isn't proving very effective, as most look off-line after El Rincon at this point. Last I heard from him, Brian was being shuttled out to refresh the devices himself so possibly by the time North America wakes up the teams won't all look to be stopped at El Rincon!

I've got some pics from Brian and additional material I'll get posted over to http://www.adventureworldmagazineonline.com -- including some pics of the Untamed New England team along with some of the others.

There's been some speculation about whether Guats is on the short course because their kayak/trek section didn't appear on the SPOT tracker. Looking at the Guats SPOT track, the time it took Team Blackwater to do that section, and the time that Team Blackwater's SPOT stopped tracking, it looks like Guats did the kayak/trek section while their SPOT was not working then got it re-set upon their return to El Rincon. It's hard to imagine them skipping the kayak/trek section by choice when they are doing well - especially since they are reportedly having bike troubles.

I haven't heard anything from inside the organization about them skipping that section; the SPOTs do require some care and feeding, or they go "dark" when left alone for 24+ hours. There tracker probably just stopped transmitting, is all.

The safety mechanism (911 activation and Help features) are always available, it's just the tracking mode that goes offline after 24 hours of use.

I have asked about getting a list of which teams have skipped sections of the race (first o-course, for example) as that's critical to getting a handle on exactly where things stand.

I was hoping that was the case, as it seemed early and unnecessary for them to skip that section, and very unlike them! Most of the teams immediately following them seem to have completed it, so it would make sense that they did, too.

Grant, looking forward to your updates about any non-full-course teams.

I bring it up every conversation I have with our guy in Spain, and I know he's trying, but no luck so far.

I too think Guats completed that section according to their spot tracker. If we didnt' have the spots then I wouldn't even bother going to the website. The leaderboard makes me want to throw my computer, not even worth putting up there. I'll just continue to try to figure this all out on my own. I have a feeling Phatty and I are going to have a very similar conversation as when I returned from Portugal last year as far as coverage is concerned.

It looks like the leaderboard was only ever updated for the top 20 teams at a certain point in time. (And that point in time was quite awhile ago!) All the teams below that are listed in numerical order - hence Untamed New England is at the bottom.

I noticed that, too, Bash. They're not doing poorly, but you'd never know from the leaderboard!

Latest leaderboard is better. It shows Untamed in 20th and Guats in 18th although that news is about 12 hours old. Still, it's nice to see it!

The rolling cut-off 24-hours behind the race leader policy looks to bump all but the top 10 teams or so from the race . . . Untamed NE just made it in time after the paddle (http://www.adventureworldmagazineonline.com/advent...) for example, and with a good day or two of racing I'm not sure they can eat into the 23 hour 30 minute lead the first team has on them at the moment . . . hopefully they let them finish the full course after doing so well so far!

... it seems that the linear course days are over... mostly for logistics reason I guess. I think a combination of linear up to 3/4 of the course and then having 'advanced kind of loops' is what makes more sens. Untamed NE course wall well balanced in that way this year with the rogaine section at the end, allowing teams to arrive in a specific time window.

Hey Alex, you can be sure RTNX next year will be about as traditional as possible. I have the course about 50% tested, and it's working out better than expected - and almost entirely linear, one big expedition start to finish, no stops, no loops, no covering the same ground twice...and no inline skates!

I'm testing what I expect will be my favorite part of the race next weekend...might post some teaser photos on FB...

I know that these are the World Champs and they are supposed to be a challenge but does it bother anyone else that the mid pack teams are getting screwed in a race like this with a rolling cutoff? I would be pissed if I went to this race and spent the last couple days of the race riding around the spanish countryside on my bike only to continually have to drop other interesting sections to stay ranked. The final rankings will be pointless below any teams that aren't still on the full course.

It seems like a race like this creates its own set of new logistical issues. Are they any easier to deal witht than the logistics of a linear course? There are still linear races out there though. XPD seemed like a good course last year. hopefully they can put together a good worlds course for next year.

Geoff - when are you going to announce where Extreme is finishing? I would really like it if the race started down the street from my house and finished in Rossland or Nelson. That would be an awesome expedtiion:)

I agree Revy....and from racing in Portugal last year it really sucks to be getting screwed around mid/back pack and we too ended up riding so much of the course. They said this wasn't going to happen in Spain because the race director did the race in Portugal last year but alas here we are - same problems!

Interesting discussion and I agree after racing last year in Portugal and being screwed over time and time again. XPD in Australia has always been a traditional linear course and I believe this will continue next year. It seems to be what everyone prefers, I certaintly do!

Spain looked to be incrementally better this year, let's be fair. For the lead 12 or so teams who visit all the checkpoints the course is simple and "linear" in the sense that there is no forking, skipping around, or cut-offs that aren't really cut-offs etc; the only way to get ahead of the teams in front of them is to pass them.

It deteriorates for the teams who miss a cut-off or voluntarily decide to bypass a section, as these teams get mixed in with those lead 12 teams and the other teams who have missed sections. The absence of a coherent leaderboard showing team rankings beyond the top teams makes me think the race organization doesn't have a handle on where the other 35 or so teams stand.

I've organized sweeping linear courses and one of the drawbacks can be slower teams getting a bike tour from TA to TA until they get back ahead of the cut-offs.

Every race need cut-offs or a system for slower teams, unless you're set up to staff checkpoints for a week or more beyond the leaders. There are no races like that. In the old days, when teams missed a cut-off they were pulled off the course . . . although I never hear that included in the clamour for "the good old days" of AR. I don't know any team that travels and preps for a race that would be satisfied with simply being taken out of the race, but as an organizer that would sure make logistics and planning easier!

One solution is a course that has some loops where TAs and cut-offs are located at the intesection point of the loop. Ideally, race disciplines don't align so that it's just a bike trip between the TAs but that might be where Spain's approach broke down. XPD Australia looked to employ this approach successfully with slower teams this past May (the "catch-up" legs weren't just biking). XPD Australia was also very organized in keeping categorization for teams.

I saw Portugal in person, and that was a new low for me in terms of a disorganized race situation. What I've seen and heard from Spain make me think they did better, but lots of room for improvement still. I expect Australia will deliver a great event because they've been holding long 6 day expedition races for some time, and past success is the best indicator of future success.

It looks like 13th and 19th for Guats and Untamed from what I heard.....awesome in such a tough field!

Hey guys, just getting around to reading some of the AR Worlds postings.

Grant, thanks for the prediction re.a top-5, we were hoping for one as well, but you can read in my training log what went wrong (bike nav, bike mechanicals, possibly too much sleep etc.), anyway, thanks a ton for getting us there. I look forward to hearing more details of Switzerland......

I think the big problem in Spain surrounding the poorly updated leaderboard and lack-luster coverage came down to having poor communications around the course (from HQ to the TA's & also between the TA's). I spoke with Wanda P. who was working one of the TA's after & during the event & she confirmed communication was poor, or non-existent. The course itself was actually well thought-out and provided an adequate challenge, although I'll always prefer wilderness-based, vs. trail-based events, but not every country is blessed with the availability and relatively easy accessability to terrain that Canada has. The way the course was designed, it would have been super-easy to differentiate, via the leaderboard when teams missed a leg, which should have moved them down the leaderboard into a seperate category, i.e. teams who've missed a section. However, I don't think this is how the rules worked in Spain. Instead of moving a team into a seperate category, their plan was to keep everyone ranked on the same course, but apply time penalties of 2X the slowest team for any missed section. This effectively can't be done until after the event, or at least until after the slowest team is off the section skipped by others, hence the confusion experienced with the leaderboard.

Amongst other things, I think better communications & clearly defined rules would have helped this event.

Thanks for all the support everyone!